Wednesday, February 18, 2009
Thomas L. Friedman and his readers' take on Indian Muslim, Indian Islam in The New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/opinion/18friedman.html
No Way
Published:
Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times
Thomas L. Friedman
There are nine bodies — all of them young men — that have been lying in a Mumbai hospital morgue since Nov. 29. They may be stranded there for a while because no local Muslim charity is willing to bury them in its cemetery. This is good news.
The nine are the Pakistani Muslim terrorists who went on an utterly senseless killing rampage in Mumbai on 26/11 — India’s 9/11 — gunning down more than 170 people, including 33 Muslims, scores of Hindus, as well as Christians and Jews. It was killing for killing’s sake. They didn’t even bother to leave a note.
All nine are still in the morgue because the leadership of India’s Muslim community has called them by their real name — “murderers” not “martyrs” — and is refusing to allow them to be buried in the main Muslim cemetery of Mumbai, the 7.5-acre Bada Kabrastan graveyard, run by the Muslim Jama Masjid Trust.
“People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim,” Hanif Nalkhande, a spokesman for the trust, told The Times of London. Eventually, one assumes, they will have to be buried, but the Mumbai Muslims remain defiant.
“Indian Muslims are proud of being both Indian and Muslim, and the Mumbai terrorism was a war against both
To be sure, Mumbai’s Muslims are a vulnerable minority in a predominantly Hindu country. Nevertheless, their in-your-face defiance of the Islamist terrorists stands out. It stands out against a dismal landscape of predominantly Sunni Muslim suicide murderers who have attacked civilians in mosques and markets — from Iraq to Pakistan to Afghanistan — but who have been treated by mainstream Arab media, like Al Jazeera, or by extremist Islamist spiritual leaders and Web sites, as “martyrs” whose actions deserve praise.
Extolling or excusing suicide militants as “martyrs” has only led to this awful phenomenon — where young Muslim men and women are recruited to kill themselves and others — spreading wider and wider. What began in a targeted way in
It is a threat to any open society because when people turn themselves into bombs, they can’t be deterred, and the measures needed to interdict them require suspecting and searching everyone at any public event. And they are a particular threat to Muslim communities. You can’t build a healthy society on the back of suicide-bombers, whose sole objective is to wreak havoc by exclusively and indiscriminately killing as many civilians as possible.
If suicide-murder is deemed legitimate by a community when attacking its “enemies” abroad, it will eventually be used as a tactic against “enemies” at home, and that is exactly what has happened in
The only effective way to stop this trend is for “the village” — the Muslim community itself — to say “no more.” When a culture and a faith community delegitimizes this kind of behavior, openly, loudly and consistently, it is more important than metal detectors or extra police. Religion and culture are the most important sources of restraint in a society.
That’s why India’s Muslims, who are the second-largest Muslim community in the world after Indonesia’s, and the one with the deepest democratic tradition, do a great service to Islam by delegitimizing suicide-murderers by refusing to bury their bodies. It won’t stop this trend overnight, but it can help over time.
“The Muslims of Bombay deserve to be congratulated in taking this important decision,” Raashid Alvi, a Muslim member of
The fact that Indian Muslims have stood up in this way is surely due, in part, to the fact that they live in, are the product of and feel empowered by a democratic and pluralistic society. They are not intimidated by extremist religious leaders and are not afraid to speak out against religious extremism in their midst.
It is why so few, if any, Indian Muslims are known to have joined Al Qaeda. And it is why, as outrageously expensive and as uncertain the outcome, trying to build decent, pluralistic societies in places like
READERS' COMMENTS
The defiance of Islamist terrorists by Indian Muslims stands out against a dismal landscape of Sunni Muslim suicide murderers who have been treated by Arab media as “martyrs.”
Share your thoughts.
·
All Comments - Oldest First
:
"The only effective way to stop this trend is for “the village” — the Muslim community itself — to say “no more.”
Totally agreed, but unfortunately we can't even get the African-American community in the United States to take a similar stand against the internal issues plaguing their communities, and their problems are not even driven by ideology let alone religion. You have stated the solution, but unfortunately like most things it's easier said than done.
— Katherine,
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Talking about Muslims and their nationality/freedom Mr. Friedman did you hear about the NY based Pakistani-American who beheaded his wife because he wasn't too pleased she wanted to divorce him due to his domestic violence record. Talibanism right in our backyard. I hear the Pakistani Govt is busy signing peace treaties with the Talibani militants.
—
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I am skeptical.
The real reason why Indian muslims don't want to bury the killers is because of the massive fear of retribution. They know it well - they have suffered time and again.
Indian muslims' motives may not be as lofty as many make it sound to be in your conversations.
— Nat,
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And yet . . .
I visited
— Kelly, An Observation, ND
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Tragically, India's relatively enlightened Muslim community counts for little throughout the Muslim world, which appears to be completely dominated by Hezbollah, Hamas, the Iranian clerics and many, many other religious extremists. Don't hold your breath waiting for those groups to denounce terror.
— carl47,
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Are you kidding me? Indian Muslims are refusing to bury these murderers because they don't want to be "branded" as terrorist sympathizers by the Hindu majority of
—
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I agree with everything you said and believe everything followed logically in your piece up until the second to last paragraph (about why democracy made it all happen).
Logically speaking I did not see any argument through out the piece that talked about how democracy allowed the Indian Muslims to be vocal in a way they perhaps could not under a benevolent religious leader/monarch. Muslims under monarchies have been vocal too. Not under Saddam (who was not a monarch but a dictator) but under other monarchs and political leaders. Take any Muslim country or any country for that matter. Why not take the
The fact that
— A Muslim,
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Thanks for the pertinent article. This should teach not just the majority Muslims, who are peace loving, but also the majority Hindus, Christians, Jews to stop all killings either in the name of religion, hatred, politics, oil or a piece of land.
We should tirelessly endeavor for this purpose, drawing inspiration from the likes of MK Gandhi and ML King.
—
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Indian democracy imperfect as it is, offers Indian Muslims the freedom and the opportunity to live and improve their lives in a way no other Muslim state does.
For example Muslim women in
Can any Muslim nation make such a claim?
— Pranav Kale,
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Mr. Friedman:
Consider the following possibilities:
a) It may not be aggod sign at all that Indian Muslims are not claiming the bodies. They maybe simply afraid given the history of violent attacks on them by radical hindu groups.
b) There are plenty of "Arab-Sunni" condemnations of terrorist attacks. You may be able to google it!
c) The empirically unfounded Arab-Sunni sympathy for terrorist networks is a myth. All you have to do is consider what is happening in three non-Arab states:
I think you need to change the subject.
—
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When you say it takes a village (i.e., the consensus of the community) to stop terrorists, you're almost 100% right. You're right until you try to use this argument to justify the democratization of
— donnolo, Monterey, CA
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Goes to show how a pluralistic society tempers extremist thoughts.
—
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I spent most of my childhood in
— Richard,
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Dear Sir,
Its good to see that the European and mainly US nations are with
Now, we Indian does not want any Military help from these countries but Moral support and sincere efforts.
Now, we assume, what happening in J&K is not a Local Terrorism but its Global (we have seen BBC, CNN called it so called un-known elements, now they said Pakistan Militants).
But its very Sad to see in past that these countries did not recognize
Thanks a
— Amol,
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Before we happily celebrate the graveyard policies of certain Indian Muslims, I think we'd do well to remember the pressures (by the Hindu groups) they would face were they in fact to bury the terrorists' bodies. I wish Mr. Friedman had told us whether there are _any_ other (e.g., theological) reasons prohibiting the burial of Muslim murderers, martyrs, suicides, or whatever you want to call these corpses. If not, there seems to be only a politically pragmatic decision in play.
If it is right per Koranic principles to bury a dead foreign enemy, and if it is social-political suicide for the Muslims to do this with the said corpses, then the Hindu groups could show some largesse and appoint a Muslim burial for them. This would reflect true community.
— MS,
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The Indian Muslims deserve loud and heartfelt applause for their stand. But let's face it: Tom preaches only to the choir. His words, I suspect, do little good, and probably enrage a good many fence sitters in the Muslim world. To them, in light of the carnage in
— Luke,
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Being an Indian Muslim who has friends in many parts of the Muslim world, I can assure you that the preponderance of the Muslim population shares the opinions of its brethren from
On that note, I would ask your opinion, or those of your colleagues, on the rapid rise of Mr. Lieberman and Yisrael Beiteinu.
— ash, ca
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Thank you, Mr. Friedman, for this good but not well known news. Surely, this is a hint of how we must proceed in
— C L
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The point becomes more clear in the final paragraph. Friedman is still trying to wash all the Iraqi blood from his hands.
— Howard K,
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Being a Muslim from
In many muslim majority countries, a tiny minority has bullied the majority using Islam as an excuse to push for radical agendas. The silent majority doesn't have strong institutions or democratic traditions to protect them from radical mullahs (who are actually power hungry political aspirants in disguise of Islamic leaders). Thus the silent majority's voice is suppressed and ignored.
The only way to reduce the radical's influence in middle east is 1) Democracy (Usually will take few decades to take root).
2) Benign and Visionary Dictatorship eventually leading to democracy (Quicker to implement, but Dictatorship is almost always corrupted) e.g. Mustafa Kemal.
—
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I am an Indian born in a Muslim family. What I feel is many Muslims are so selfish to destroy the peace of other people in order to get heaven for themselves in the “next” world. They donate, they offer prayers, they fight and they love their families only for this purpose – to enter into heaven and lead a life with maids and eternal food forever.
There is a truth: Islam asks the followers to fight until the last human being convert to Islam. Islam also asks to cut the head of enemy wherever possible. As long as these things are in Islam there will be suicide bombers among Muslims. The Bombay Muslim leaders refused to burry the terrorist not because they love
—
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I am disappointed to read yet another shrill and misguided Thomas Friedman column.
Mr. Friedman, suicide bombing is desperate act of personal and political violence. Religion is but one of many scabards in which the hideous act is sheathed by architects of violence. Simply put, to associate suicide with any particular religion is ignorant. One need not even look beyond the South Asian region to understand this point -- Indian patronage of the suicide-bombing Tamil Tigers in
The unfortunate fact that
Friedman's championing of the Indian Muslim community that refused burial to the November Mumbai attackers is also off the mark. Islam teaches that burials ought to be speedy, simple, clean and humane. Providing a simple burial to the misguided terrorists who attacked Mumbai in November would be a significant act of mercy, beneficience and compassion on the part of Indian Muslims. Islam teaches these three principles, above all. Mr. Friedman argues that letting their bodies rot is an act of bravery on the part of the Indian Muslim community of
I don't think that Mr. Friedman is 100% wrong 100% of the time. In fact, he occasionally makes an interesting point. I do find, however, that he tends to reduce complex issues to vitriolic didacticisms and loses my respect and his own credibility along the way.
— OR,
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Don't you think the boys should get a burial, if nothing else, for their mothers' sake?
— Bharatesh,
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Mr. Friedman,
Thanks. It is importantly to differentiate and not club all muslims in one category and similarly, despite
India and its population has suffered a lot over the ages from outside and from within but some problems that India has solved - creation of a true pluralistic society, democracy and freedom of speech, believing in your faith but accepting all, acceptance of all living beings right to live -- are only beginning to even emerge as problems in other countries and the solution is truly far off.
— SS,
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Good article. I am proud of my Muslim bretheren for this bold and courageous step they have taken. Like the writer says- it may not stop the bombers immediately, but will have a long term effect.
— ram, pune
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26.
All Editors' Selections »EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
I grew up in
Only in
— Vineet Buch,
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Great article. Inspite of all its short-comings and religious violence,
God give them strength to find a way out of the hole that they are in.
— SandS, TX
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Dear Mr. Tom,
It’s with great eagerness that I always follow your informative and edifying articles, but this one has blown me away.
Nine bodies have been lying in a mortgage for almost 3 months, not because they do not have families to take them in and bury them, but because they had killed more than 170 people and tried to simply leave, before hell landed on them. This is mind-blowing?!!
Most of the Muslim societies in today’s world have been placed between a rock and a hard place. From a side, they are facing their mostly illegitimate, corrupt and undemocratic countries. From another, they are confronting a frustrated, angry world who think that they are the masterminds of every terrorism act or violence. However, this does not give any Muslim person the authority to kill or slaughter the mother living next door with her child simply because she is from another religion or from a country which supports these fraudulent regimes. Not in any circumstance can we do that: no way, no how, not anywhere in the world.
Which brings me to my point on
As the second largest Muslim community in the world as you have mentioned, Indian Muslims are expected to do much to uphold the tarnished image of Islam. Islam is not a religion of killing innocent men, women and children (and I believe all the religions enforce this belief), and cutting the throats of journalists and diplomats. It is a religion of peace – as the word Islam comes from the word Salam in Arabic, which means peace.
And yes as Mr. Freidman pointed out, the Koran verse that compares “killing of an innocent… to slaying the whole community” can be read in The Table Chapter, Verse no: 32.
Finally, I think in the due course of the coming weeks and days, somebody will have to bury these bodies. However, what was more important was the symbolism that which the Indian Muslims have displayed to the world: that we can live peacefully and serenely, no matter our racial or religious differences. So, I am of the view that we bury them, not in order to give them the last respect but, to warn the future bombers that no one will be responsible for their bodies: they will be thrown for the dogs.
It may be a cliché to say that it takes a village to change societies, but nevertheless, who knows, it may take the Indian Muslims to restore the Muslim image that has gone down the drains.
S.A.D. Nairobi –
— S. A. D.,
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Everything in this Op-Ed is true but in which Muslim country (with the possible exception of
— IPI, SLC
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Indian Hindus and Muslims (not to mention Christians and Sikhs) have learned to co-exist peacefully, despite Muslim cruelty towards Hindus/Sikhs during their rule. I credit this to the civilizing influence of Hinduism, and the resulting tolerance for other's beliefs. Sufi saints are revered by Muslims and Hindus alike, and I hope their loving, peaceful interpretation of Islam replaces the harsh Wahabi version everywhere. Forward thinking Muslims from
American Muslims need to learn a lesson from their Indian cousins and speak up more often than they do today. Here the mosques appear to be hijacked by dour Saudi imams, and the children totally brainwashed. The teachings of Sufi saints are never mentioned. Very sad and discouraging. Why can't the Muslim reformation start here?
— Jyothi Raman,
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Point taken. But one cannot help but feel, after 8 years of Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney, any measure you take to change things as a world citizen is acceptable. Honestly, I would rather die than live in a world like this. I believe every 'suicide bomber' that brought us Obama did not die in vain. Let us see if he will get that.
— alan,
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I think it is unfair to say that the Muslim world at large does not condemn suicide bombers. It is the small but extreme few who claim these bombers are 'martyrs'
— Student,
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The reason why Indian Muslims are "different" from Arab or Central Asian Muslims is because these Muslims were coverts from Hinduism (as are Indonesian and Malay Muslims) and have retained their pre-Islamic sensibilities, mainly a higher level of tolerance and absence of a tribal cum feudal past precluding violence as the first option, that is the hallmark of majority of the world's Muslims.
— Espi,
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Even if it comes in the wake of the horrific slaughter in Mumbai, this is good news.
The most depressing thing about the events of the last few years is the failure of Muslim leaders to roundly and loudly condemn the crimes that have been carried out in the name of Islam. This just gives aid and comfort to the psychopaths of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
It also provides ammunition to the demagogues in the west who rant on about 'Islamofacism' (yes Rudi, I'm talking about you) even though they should know better .
I hope this is the start of a trend...
— Bob,
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The final paragraph ends a good article with yet another apology for the Iraq War. Friedman can't admit making a mistake in supporting this fiasco.
— TMJ,
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I agree that murderers of innocents are not truly of the religion they may claim. Thats why Bush, Cheney and the rest of the criminals that perpetrated the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and others, are not true Christians in my eyes. Nor are the murderous Israeli government and its supporters true Hebrews or Jews. They use religion to enrich themselves and carryout their sinister objectives. So, I'd love to see the
— Truthserum007,
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All Editors' Selections »EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
Dear Mr. Friedman:
It is always good and important to give attention in your column to these kinds of stories, these kinds of trends.
I continue to wonder and puzzle at the Muslim world -- it appears that in some places it is openly hostile to others, even other kinds of Muslims. In other places it exists with the same kind of genuine respect for the polity that we take for granted (almost) here in the
I believe we need to truly understand the dynamics that propel one kind of Muslim down a path of hate and "martyrdom", and another down a path of peace and respect.
Even many years after 9/11, the average American is confused and hazy on the reality, the mythology, and the cause of Islamic terrorism (and its cure). How well we will be served when we can finally come to grips with the dynamics and forces shaping this cultural and religious riddle.
— TBS,
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Dear Mr. Friedman,
Whenever I see you taking on the Muslim world in your columns I cringe. I think that you greatly oversimplify the issues and take on an unnecessarily patronizing tone. Muslim people aren’t the only ones to use bombing (suicide or otherwise) as a tool of war. Bombing is used by groups around the world, such as ETA in
You are making it sound like Muslim people in general are apt to put on a suicide bomb and just blow themselves up, and that they are so naive to be pushed one way or another by the public opinion. How can you forget that the
I really wish you would stick to your columns about technology and education.
— LM,
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Finally, a stand is taken -- albeit by a brave few -- but it's a start nonetheless. Thank you for telling us about it, and for calling a spade by its true name.
— Steve B.,
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Mr. Friedman, while no person of good will and sound mind would disagree with your thoughts in this piece, near the end you write:
“And it is why, as outrageously expensive and
as uncertain the outcome, trying to build decent,
pluralistic societies in places like
as crazy as it seems.”
Isn't it time you stopped beating that horse? Regardless of the future outcome in
— David,
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As I have been going back and forth to
Yet as vast numbers of Indian Muslims continue to form a united front against the ‘un-Islamic’ terrorists responsible for the recent attacks, stripping them of the right to use the Qu’ran to justify such vulgar violence in the name of Islam, it will likely lead Indians of Hindu cultural backgrounds to feel less threatened by Indian Muslims in general, and hopefully lead to less support for radical extremism the Hindu Right (which needs the Muslim and Christian communities to be framed as immediate ‘threats’ to India’s theoretically elemental 'Hindu' identity).
Ultimately, even amid the devastation these attacks have caused, the outcry has been universal.
In the grand scheme of things, 10 years of living 3-6 month stretches in various parts of
On a last--and optimistic--note, the
— Azadi,
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"...the Koran says that the killing of an innocent is akin to slaying the whole community."
This chestnut is similar to our expression "a stitch in time saves nine."
It means essentially nothing, and the killing continues.
— Tom Moran,
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Just to show that not all muslims are terrorists; only a few bad apples.
— mos,
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— Roger,
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While this is an encouraging sign, I'm not sure you can so easily extend it to support the invasion and continued occupation of
— Ron,
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Mr. Friedman, should you not be focusing on the imploding American economy and the 401Ks, not to mention the jobs and lives? Ever wondered who unleashed the housing bubble which ate up our economy? Was it not your friend and fellow neocon Alan Greenspan who in 2003 lowered the fed funds rate to a then record low of 1% in a RISING economy and held it there for a whole year? Why don't you ask him why he dropped this economic WMD on us? Could it be it was to help finance a certain very expensive war started the same year which I recall you vociferously championed?
I'm sure
— qualquan,
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The courage of Mumbai muslims is exemplary and pluralistic society may have contributed to their defiance. Other factors such as fear of backlash may also have played a part in disowning the bodies who were in my opinion indeed Fasaadis. What also builds such courage is restraint and deep introspection ('jihad' if I may call it in Islamic terminology) of Mumbai muslims in the face of adversity from which the whole world should learn from.
Attacking a country unprovoked and killing hundreds of innocent citizens and putting many more into misery worse than death, however, cannot be justified as an attempt to promote a pluralistic society. In my opinion the war and ensuing struggle in
—
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Even more important than the point made in this article would have been to contrast how India treats its minorities (Muslims, Sikhs, Christians) vs. how Pakistan treats its (Hindus, Sikhs). The chief of Mumbai police now (and during the 08 terrorist attacks) is Hasan Ghafoor, a Muslim. Other Indian Muslims have been presidents, academics, film stars, sports stars, literary figures. Undoubtedly, there is much unequal treatment of Muslims in
In 1947, when the British left and modern day
Mulsims in
(Source: Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_demographics).
It would be nice to have some serious and comprehensive reporting by the NYT on this point.
— AG,
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I absolutely agree that until good Muslims shun suicide-bombers the martyr problem will continue. Why shouldn't we, the rest of the world, the larger "village", not shun the whole Muslim community until they've cleaned up their house? I say that with purely pragmatic interest (I'm an atheist and have no religious bone to pick). The best way, in my opinion, to delegitimize suicide-bombers is to send a unified message to the people that can best stop the action. Of course, the devil's in the details, and how this would be done is an open question, and but I throw the idea out there for thought.
—
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Finally some Muslims have the heart and courage to publicly take a position of outrage. I suggest the western press stop using the term "jihadists" and start referring to such terrorists as "fasadis" as the more proper Koranic term. Perhaps Muslims elsewhere will begin to get the idea that there is a difference and no "reward" in the afterlife for murderers.
—
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51.
For thousands of years the unchanged message of India's civilization has been that one should do good as it is one's acts of goodness that will ultimately be rewarded (The Law of "Dharma" or Righteousness) - irrespective of to whom on prays or of which faith one professes. This message of oneness and tolerance has enabled the largely peaceful co-existence of almost all the world's major religions in
The action of India's Muslim community - of placing human values far above religious affiliation - is a message that needs to be heeded around the world, i.e. not just by the fanatical elements amongst Muslims but also by the ever increasing number of Christians, Jews, Hindus and other religions' followers who are keen to hold the followers of other faiths worthy only of their hatred and violence.
— Bhartendu Sinha,
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Well, Indian Muslims have not been bombed by the American air force.
How would you react if your family was killed by American bombs. How would you respond if your child died because it was denied the proper medication? In
The situation in
There is no justification for murder. But there is ALWAYS A REASON for it.
— joseph parmetler,
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Mr. Friedman:
You say "And it is why, as outrageously expensive and as uncertain the outcome, trying to build decent, pluralistic societies in places like
Question: Where will the money come from?
— LVL,
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While the general thrust of Friedman's points about Indian Muslims being quite nuanced in their identities and quite patriotic as well, and certainly so by standards for an ill-treated minority anywhere in the world, are generally correct, I take exception with some of his views. Most importantly, to just share one disagreement, is that his description of Al-Jazeera's coverage of civilian-killing suicide bombing operations as adulatory is simply 100% untrue. I say it politely but it is a serious indictment of Mr. Friedman's myopia, because indeed, if you turn on Al Jazeera English you'll get what I personally think is by far the most intelligent, globally-comprehensive, detailed, historical, scientific and multi-angled news coverage. You can watch Al Jazeera for free on line also, and believe me, they make the BBC look amateur, let alone our pathetic 'news' in the US from channels like CNN, MSNBC and FOX, who are all incapable of understanding the 'news' let alone report it.
Seriously, give them a try. Their news is so bloody sharp and smart that you'll be hooked if you are starved for real international news and you live in
Jovian Radheshwar
UCSB Political Science PhD Student
— Jovian Radheshwar,
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The only effective way of preventing suicide bombing in
— John S. Hancock,
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Your Op-Ed piece was refreshing to read, i.e. the point not the plot. Of course, extremists can always claim that no one is innocent -- you're either with us or against us. It is refreshing to see the Muslims of India rejecting that notion.
Also: thanks for the information. I had no idea there were so many Muslims in
—
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Thanks for bringing this article out.
Indian muslims still have to come out of their shell. Just few years ago the infamous practice of saying "talaq" three times to divorce one's wife was abolished.
Not long ago we heard indian muslim clerics decrying Sania mirza, ATP tour tennis player that she was de-filing islam through wearing skimpy skirts.
indian muslims leader is Khan abdul gaffar khan popularly known as frontier gandhi who believed in peaceful secular
surely democratic ideals will win over the narrow minded extremists views.
— Karthik,
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Correct. Terrorism threatens all ethnic, racial, religious, and national groups, including its own. The key is to recognize that it may look like Muslim-vs-Hindu, or Arab-vs-Jew, or whatever, but the real war is always the same -- fanaticism vs rationality. And the only way to win is for the rational people within each group to muzzle and marginalize the fanatics among themselves.
— Steve,
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Has anyone else noticed that Friedman + energy, environment, or innovation = awesome; Friedman +
— BC,
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Thank you for an excellet and much needed article. It is good to finally see the "good Muslims" as the topic.
— josef nix,
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So, Mr. Friedman has finally come a full circle. He was for the
— ame, HSV
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Well, thank God (or Allah) *someone* finally saw through these fools and called them out for what they truly are: extortionists, control freaks, and murderers. In tandem with your column, there was a report last night on NPR about a
— Sean Martin,
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During Wold War I in Gelibolu-Canakkale, as Westerners name it Gallipoli-Dardanella,the Turkish army was in defence against the Allies.The fight has turned to a trench warfare.One side was the Turkish Army defending the motherland,on the other side was the allies.French,English and the soldiers from as far as New Zealand and Australia.One day Turkish soldier went to nearby stream to get fresh water and he saw a soldier from the allies and he was from New Zealand.Turkish soldier did have his rifle with him but he did not fire to kill his enemy.Because we have a saying in Turkish.''Do not even touch a snake while drinking water''
This article is of Mr.Friedman reminded me that event happened 80 years ago.I believe every nation has the right to defend itself against their enemies.But it should be made in the battlefield.The brave nations do it in the battlefield.They do not wrap the bomb around thier bodies and blow a busy market or any other public spaces.That kind of action does not have any kind of explanation in any of the monotheist religions and in their holly books.The suicide bombing is being coward.No clergy could explain it from a verse of Koran.Koran says ''Killing one innocent being means killing the whole civilisation''
— Hamit,
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You make an insightful point...it will take a village to fight/transform terrorism-minded individuals. I have heard of mothers submitting their sons to suicide bombing because they are driven despondent by the events of their life time. There is no better provision of legitimacy than a mother's approval to participate in terrorism. Deep down, this is a consequence of decades of suffering in these families due to a multitude of reasons and therefore, not easy to fix in the short term. Realization as a community, of the sad consequences of mindless terrorism and show of disapproval is an excellent aspect to applaud - as you have rightly done in this article. Thanks.
— Bala,
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Was it not the extreme act of Al Qaeda that turned an American presidency from conservative to extremist - a presidency that practiced torture and kidnapping and defended them as justifiable, that chose war over sanctions in
And was it not this extreme American administration and its allies who called those who questioned its acts traitors, and called those who opposed the war haters of the American "warriors" in the Armed Forces?
And was it not this extreme American administration which used its popularity following this attack against us as a lever to push its social agenda, trying to change the social contract while pouring wealth upon its friends and taking from the rest?
Thankfully, we still have the Bill of Rights and some had the courage to consistently say aloud that what
For them, we should have all spoken up.
Bob Benish
— kcbob, Kansas City, MO
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A great piece of analysis!
— Stephen,
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Mr. Friedman: I've no doubt that the attitude of the Muslim community in Mumbai in sincere in their reasoning not to bury the nine dead terrorists; maybe that community should take a cue from "Curb Your Enthusiasm," where Larry David's mother was put in a section for those with tattoos. However, in your final paragraph, you juxtapose that by saying that "trying to build decent, pluralistic societies in places like
—
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"You can’t build a healthy society on the back of suicide-bombers, whose sole objective is to wreak havoc by exclusively and indiscriminately killing as many civilians as possible."
Agreed. But you also can't build a healthy society by confining a community inside a concentration camp and treating them as less than humans. You cannot build a healthy society by unilaterally invading a country on a tissue of lies (an invasion that Mr. Friedman supported). Who am I to say how people should or should not behave when subjected to such indignities?
This has nothing to do with Muslims or Islam. Would Americans have been as ready to adopt Dr. King's position if blacks had not rioted in the cities and if far worse alternatives had not threatened society?
Mr. Friedman has not lived as a black or as resident of
—
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The decision by the religious leader was mainly taken because the Pakistani terrorists had killed not 33, but an estimated 40 Muslims in their carnage. There is no such violent pressure form the Hindu radical side to the religious clerics, but an act to accept those bodies will affect the relations of many Muslims co-existing with many non-Muslims, further hurting trust.
In addition, the line from Quran MJ Akbar is talking has not been comprehended by him it seems. The verse said by him is quran verse no. 5:32. Please Google for this and you will know that this verse does not call Israelis as innocents, and the definition of ‘innocent’ is debatable. In a way, the 33 ‘innocent’ were dead in the attack and not 179.
Very true, “the village” has to openly talk against such miscreants, murderers and not term them as “martyrs”. It will be best if we find a large number of Ex-Muslims in the world. It is the duty of “Muslims” to start having a voice against those very elements and beliefs they hold that give encouragement to violence, terrorism and intolerance.
—
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I read Al Jazeera English regularly. I am not aware of that media organization praising suicide terrorism as an act of martyrdom. They have had reports about those who do - just as our media do. It would seem that Mr. Friedman is conveniently disregarding the fact that we honor our war dead as heroes for having made the ultimate sacrifice even when their acts include collateral damage with the deaths of innocents. I believe his perspective serves the purposes of his continued propaganda against Arab and Muslim culture.
— Dan,
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Perhaps the Obama administration can begin using the terms "Fasad" and "Fasadis" in place of "Jihad." It's a message that has been missing from
—
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1. To call 26/11
2. Whereas it is true that Indian Muslims enjoy more freedom and are possibly happier than their Iraqi and Afghan counter-parts - I think it has nothing to do with Indian democracy. It is essentially because
If the world wants to see a functional
a.
b.
— Akhilesh,
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Great column, Tom, till the last paragraph where you use enlightened Indian Muslims in your endless quest to try to sneak in yet another lame "justification" for your support for the war on Iraqis.
Give it up! Maybe instead of making excuses for your bellicosity, you should start an American Truth & Reconciliation Program where you are the first to stand up & shout out the truth -- you were a superduper dupe of the Administration.
As I said, great column.
The Constant Weader at www.RealityChex.com
— marie burns,
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I was born and raised in
— Raj, NC
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I am an indian hindu, and i say this with a measure of pride that our muslim bretherens are beautiful people. simple at heart, patriots and intensely gifted. They have enormously contributed to indian culture, arts, cinema and sports.
We have had several differences, and we also have bigoted people in both communities who try to spread hatred and violence, but our community is essentially self healing and always manages to repair itself.
Our secular ethos and the decision by our founders of having this country as a secular one rather than one which is a religious one has led to this happy position.
Today while almost all the countries that became independence along with us are floundering (
We do have problems, we still have poverty, but we believe in our values. and all of us indians, hindu, muslim, sikh and christians are marching forward regardless.
— Dr. Pawan Sharma,
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101.
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The courageous stand taken by Mumbai's Muslim community is indeed a good sign and one can hope that Muslims throughout the world are listening. And it also true that Muslim terrorists have killed many more Muslims than they did members of other religions. That includes even the victims of 9/11. But I don't believe Al Jazeera has been cheering for suicide bombers, even though the station has given airtime to extremists.
— R.H. Schumann,
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I find it unusual that after nearly three months since the Mumbai attacks, unburied bodies are the only significant act of Muslim defiance to terrorism Mr. Friedman highlights for his readers. Is it possible that this is the ONLY act of Muslim defiance of note? Maybe that sad reality would have been a more relevant focus for the column.
— Pete Mitchell,
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I agree with much of the article. Despite the desperate attempts of Hindu chauvinist party and their pet groups, the Indian Muslims have repeatedly asserted their patriotism and opposition to terrorism. Terrorist acts by certain certain islamic groups (outside
But the democratic processes, including untiring efforts of certain brave independent human rights organisations and the independent judiciary have ensured that the perpetrators of these heinous acts are being brought to book (even if very slowly, and sometimes reluctantly - witness the recent arrests of the Special Investigation team in Gujarat - have offered hope of justice to victims of these carnages which are terrorist acts themselves, but not formally so designated. So democracy is the best bulwark against terrorism, not war,undemocratic laws and practices.
I am surprised at the author's reference to
— P.V.S.Giridhar,
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Yes it's expensive Tom but not so expensive when you and your family aren't the ones paying the price. Upper middle class suburbanites rarely pay the price.I was drafted and sent to
— tommy b,
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Okay I'll admit that I'm a liberal in
I'm confused.
— Keith Abramowski,
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Great editorial! Only when millions of others speak up and educate their brothers and sisters that killing humans, including themselves, destroys life and hope, and does not provide salvation or virgins in heaven. It seems beliefs, without facts, are the cause of many problems and thus no one should follow hurtful dogma. By definition, relegion is not based on truth so lets stop hurting others due to false information.
— George, Bedford, nh
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It is very sad to me, an agnostic who recognizes the value of religion, to witness the evil that religious zeal can let loose on the world--evil perpetrated by Muslims, Christians, you name the religion. Perhaps this refusal to bury the terrorists is only a public relations stunt, but at this point religion as a whole ought to be grateful that someone is concerned with public relations.
In "The Religious Case Against Belief," James P. Carse refers to religions as "a conjunction of questions" posed by people who feel that something is at stake, that something matters. Where else in our societies except in churches are these feelings expressed and questions examined, coupled with a tradition that connects us both to the future and to the culture of history, the centuries of music, art, and philosophy that need to be nurtured and kept alive if only for their beauty? It seems a shame to cast away the old institutions in order to form new ones that may be just as vulnerable to misuse. Let's be grateful that for whatever reason, the Muslims of India are rejecting evil and not abandoning their conjunction of questions. We might hope for a time when they acknowledge that they are less certain of their answers,as,in my opinion, all thoughtful people of good will should be when facing questions that are almost imponderable, but for now condemning these evil acts is a good first step.
—
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Friedman's piece is both courageous and timely. These are words that must be pondered upon as much by the US State Department as by every South Asian.
People like the 17th century scholar-soldier Dara Shukoh, murdered son of the Mughal Emperor Shah Jahan, the freedom fighter Maulana Azad (Gandhi called him "my conscience keeper") and contemporary outspoken writer Salman Rushdie, who stood up to fatwa, all come out of this proud tradition of thousands of years of LIVED secular pluralism. We people of diverse faiths as well as agnostics and atheists, have lived together, grown tolerant of each other in our lush (rather than harsh) natural environment and in the process, discovered treasures in each others' culture.
In India Democracy is not some borrowed western concept. It has emerged out of a lived experience of discursive mingling of Greek, Indian, and absolutely YES, Islamic ideas, not to speak of Sikh, Christian, Judaic, Zoroastrian, Dalit and indigenous tribal ideas.
However religious tolerance and secular pluralism are not the same thing as developing uncompromisingly intolerant attitudes and policy about hunger, homelessness and inequality of opportunity.
The Indian secular democratic project has miles to go.
Chithra KarunaKaran
http://EthicalDemocracy.blogspot.com
—
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I so admire you and almost all of your commentary, Mr. Friedman, whether column or book length. But do you really think the Indian Muslims' actions and statements are motivated entirely by “good” interpretations of the Quran and pride in their nation, or might fear and political necessity have more to do with it?
I think the better current news example of the utility of the worldviews instilled by the Quran and other "scriptures" is the chap who founded the TV station to counter stereotypes of Muslims then beheaded his wife.
That story, like those of suicide bombers and others one can read about almost every single day, is a microcosm of the sort of good intent and aspiration that is eventually foiled and twisted into evil tragedy by the unsupportable foundational belief that it was a supernatural deity, rather than humans with agendas, who composed religious texts.
As long as that sad foundational delusion is propped up in any society, there will always be some interpretations of both Quran and Bible which produce good results, and also interpretations that produce horrible, needless, and unceasing tragedy. Many of the tragedies will go unseen or unacknowledged, especially in those cultures which promote and honor deity belief.
You sort of dance around the most fundamental reason why India is not in the same sad shape as Pakistan, which is that India’s secular institutions put better brakes on the insanity that rises from a cultural foundation of Hindu and Muslim deity beliefs.
Put bluntly, no matter how much you and our broader society denies it, the last people on earth who will fully appreciate what it means to live in a “Hot, Flat, and Crowded” world will be those who think the only truly important information was transmitted from an all-knowing god - and accurately recorded - back when the sun revolved around the earth and provided the only reliable light.
— RBW,
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This is a pretty pathetic attempt by Mr. Friedmen to salvage his now-bankrupted theory that Islamic extremism has no audience in
— wei w,
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It is true that a social deterring machernism can be most effective. But, please note that the people who are recruited to commit suicide are defeated, humiliated and enraged on a daily basis. So, if you treat somebody like garbage in their own country day in and day out, they will attack desperately and violently. ASking them to stop means we have to stop our agression as well. Religion has nothing to do with this. Jews did it, Christians did it, atheists did it and muslims did it... It is just human nature... Stop the agression and noone would support the terrorists. After 9/11, if we went to Afganisthan and built schools, and hospitals and taught them agriculture, we would have saved lives, money and honor. We lost, and our ideology of going to far places and trying to make changes does not work...We are bankrupt, if anyone has noticed...
—
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Mr. Friedman, I can't believe you are so naive! Even though there are plenty of muslims in
There are political parties in
Your article in my mind is a wishful thinking, not the reality.
— Ananthan,
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Fundamental problems are not related to religion or race but culture. Good thing is that culture can be changed - like in our families, companies, organizations and communities.
In general, Muslim communities are suffering from a culture of lies, victimhood, violence and intolerance of non-muslims. In places like the
—
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Unfortunately for his critics, Tom Friedman seems to thrive on contoversy. All he needs to do is miss an obvious couple of points and elevate a silly notion to be the center piece of his articles to get everyone riled up with criticism.
BTW, Poster "
— Tony, Chicago
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The comments are as interesting as the article in itself... I am not sure if the stand taken by the religious leaders should be attributed to some enlightened view on violence.
— Kowlasar Misir,
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Mr Friedman you are off the mark again. Get off the main roads and go to the interior of
— San,
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As I read this column I was thinking of sending it to a few of my friends who are Muslims with "I think they are finally starting to get it" in the subject line. When I got to the paragraph that began with "The only effective way to stop this trend is for “the village” — the Muslim community itself — to say “no more.” When a culture and a faith community delegitimizes this kind of behavior, openly, loudly and consistently, it is more important than metal detectors or extra police" I decided not to.
I am not a Muslim (or a Christian or Jew for that matter) but I have had many conversations with my friends on what the Qu'ran actually does say and Mr Friedman was totally accurate on that point.
The problem with his comments on the "village" and the "community" is that Mr Friedman has clearly not spent any time in that community of Islam. The general consensus amongst Muslims, true Muslims, is that these murderers are not Muslims at all--just as KKK members are not Christians. My requesr to all is to stop reading the hyped up, dramatized, and flat out "ignorant of that which they speak" headlines and, at least, visit the village. What you will find are rational, peace loving followers of a beautiful philosophy ( as Christianity is) who detest what the murderers have done in the name of Islam.
— jcantrell,
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"And it is why, as outrageously expensive and as uncertain the outcome, trying to build decent, pluralistic societies in places like
— JW,
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Tom Friedman, what are we going to do with you? You write so darn well and so often about issues that most of your readers have only second or third-hand knowledge of. Why not be convinced that democracy is the reason for the Muslim leaders stand against terrorism. The other options are less known and maybe fit in less conveniently with a world view held by many in the west. We do not want to see ourselves as racists so let us believe that (even) a Muslim in a democracy will feel free speak out against terrorism. The fact that
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"...it is why, as outrageously expensive and as uncertain the outcome, trying to build decent, pluralistic societies in places like
The lack of knowledge about pre-invasion
I almost expect it when people like Lindsey Graham, speaking at the Republican Convention last summer, justified the invasion of Iraq by saying "Finally, we can have a country in the Mid East where a WOMAN can have a say on her future and that of her children!". The view that pre-invasion
I have Iraqi friends, and every time I report these kinds of statements they simply can't believe it. "Iraqi women were completely free!" my one female friend says. "We weren't like the Taliban or Al Quaeda or something, that's ridiculous!" she says, aghast at the images that Americans seemed to have of her country.
It's also not the case that there was one state religion in
With people like Graham and Friedman bending the ear of the recently departed administration, no wonder we blundered into such a disaster.
—
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Mr Friedman:
I agree with those who consider fear from the majority Hindu as the incentive to deny the dead Muslim men burial.
I don't know why Timothy Mc Veigh and others who have committed acts of terrorism against their fellow citizens are denied the prominent coverage you give " Muslim terrorists". Why are you not equally provoked by the bulldozing of Rachel Courie. That brave young woman was run over in cold blood by a tank driven deliberately over her body by Israeli solders illegally camped on Palestinian soil. Why do you condone by your silence the burns inflicted on children by the phosphorus bombs used by the Israeli army during the
—
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Indian Muslim, "No Way, No How, Not Here" attitude is indeed laudable and deserve high praise from all peace loving muslims around the globe. It is worth noting that they have taken a principled and courageous stand which should be recognized and applauded by the Indian hindus, who are in overwhelming majority in
Indian muslims and even christians, continue to suffer from grave injustices, humiliations and killings in various parts of
Finally, kudos to Tom Freidman by writing an intelligent and an unbiased article in this critical phase of "war against terror". I mostly enjoy reading his opinions and analysis, except in the case of
— Zaheer Khan,
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I am Indian-American and I have no bias towards my country of birth or country of adoption. But I am pained at your fairy tale writing of Mr. Friedman.
I was in
Yes, the Muslims are afraid to bury the dead becasue they don't want to enrage the Hindus and create another communal war.
SK, IL
— IL resident, IL
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Tom Friedman, what are we going to do with you? You write so darn well and so often about issues that most of your readers have only second or third-hand knowledge of. Why not be convinced that democracy is the reason for the Muslim leaders stand against terrorism. The other options are less known and maybe fit in less conveniently with a world view held by many in the west. We do not want to see ourselves as racists so let us believe that (even) a Muslim in a democracy will feel free speak out against terrorism. The fact that
—
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I'm not sure purposefully disprespecting the corpses of those who are obviously deeply and depressingly dysfunctional does anything to disabuse us of our own deep and depressing dysfunction.
— J. Cornelio,
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126.
Mr. Friedman is correct that Muslims do not condone terrorists. I wish that Mr. Friedman uses the same standard in his op-eds about
— ahmad, fort lauderdale,fl
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Thomas Friedman can try to explain the Indian Muslim refusal to bury Pakistani Muslim terrorists by saying that Indian Muslims enjoy the freedom of a democratic society but his argument collapses because
Linda G,
— linda goudsmit,
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Don't you ever get tired of your overly simplistic analysis and characterization that invariably lead to a complete misreading of the situation.
The terrorists haven't been buried because the same Muslim brotherhood adherents who committed these acts are too afraid of the Hindu extremists that are too much like them...and they are all cowards.
And you take any morsel of evidence to justify your terrible misjudgments regarding
And I am afraid that even now Obama will lead us into a quagmire in
— rlk, chappaqua, ny
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Historically, Indian Muslim community is extremely well integrated with Indian Hindu, Christian, Sikh community in pretty much all aspects of life cultural practises, fashion, movies, music, arts and sometimes even overlapping religious celeberation. Often Muslim kids celeberate Diwali with firecrackers, Holi with colors and Hindus visit Muslims on Eid celeberation.
Unfortunately, Inspite of very strong and committed efforts by prominent secular Indians (political leaders, religious leaders, movie stars, artists etc) these old problems (seeds) often crop up. Similar, fanatism exists among Right Wing Hindu Fanatics who have recently used voilence to curb Valentines Day celeberation and also assassinated Mahtma Gandhi.
What you see now is manifestation of what Britishers have left behind in this part of the world, Divided/Disintegrated India. Just like the way they did in many other parts of the world. Mr. Friedman conveniently forgets that almost all of these problems are due to the seeds of "divide and rule" policy and the mess left behind by the western governments, particularly
— Jim Prince,
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Mr. Friedman,
The actions of not burying the dead are not to be lauded. We are better than them and are capable of showing compassion.
Secondly, the Indian Muslims you are talking about do not exist. They cannot bury the terrorists because of the very real fear of retributions from the Hindu community. You only have to go back to
The right wing Hindu nationalist BJP and the various offshoots of the RSS were so successful in the killing fields of
The Chief Minister of
Try renting a flat/(apartment for the Americans) as a Muslim in central
When a population so large has been coerced for so long, with the threat of riots and pogroms hanging over the head at all times, do not be surprised when they cannot bury the dead.
They are yet to send a single person to prison for the massacre in
But of course, if the Muslims take up arms to fight this, they will be branded as terrorists.
But that's the way it is.
—
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Tom
As honest, as futuristic and as impractical your objective are, they still deserve applause. For writing them. And for sticking to those hopes which are usually shattered very easily by violence all around.
But, you are still not trying to explore "crux" of this problem. Let me talk with respect to paskistan. The basis for paskistan was to form separate only "Islamic" nation after partition or rather British induced partition of Greater India. People who wanted Islamic state got
IF there is some way to have
IF this does not work, nothing else can. B'cos forces of "institutalization" (In this case, religion and nationalism) can only be broken from self-interestes. That in turn can be "induced" by economic interrelationships.
What I am wondering though is if UN is not doing this what the heck are they doing?. If IMF does not have this as a top priority on their list then what the heck are they doing? If US does not or is not paying attention to this matter as a part of their foreign-policy then what the heck they are doing?.
May be it is just me or may be its time to relocate UN from costly suburbs of NY to Gaza Strip. Let them feel the "heat" and they will start working -:)
— $ujay, PA
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Mr. Friedman,
It is hard for me to fathom that you are still trying to justify unilateral invasion of another sovereign nation for the purposes of land grabbing and controlling oil interests. While I am a huge supporter of non-violence and peaceful protest, terrorism is by its very nature a tactic of the weak when they feel they have no other recourse against persecution (assuming that this persecution is indeed real and not fabricated). Therefore, while condemning suicide bombers and their supposed enablers for labeling them as martyrs, it would only be fair to take to task all those that employ imperialistic tendencies in the name of freedom fighting. To paraphrase you, once a tactic is employed abroad it's not long before those same tactics will be used at home. We can only hope that the misguided tactics that you have promoted in dealing with the
— GQ,
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You bring to mind the tragedy that occured when Mountbatten agreed to the partitioning of
Did you know that the greatest single involuntary movement of people to have taken place in the history of mankind -- one that the National Geographic doesn't even recognize in is famous "refugee maps" -- is the expulsion of Bangladeshi hindus.
Look at what
While
Food for thought: Mountbatten was smitten with Gandhi. It was Gandhi's decision, following a trip to Mohakhali (in what is now
Next, you are all challenged to look beyond Gandhi's deservingly famous "non-violence" principles to his other famous legacy -- "self-sufficiency." This, because of Gandhi's enormous prestige in the "development community" has, more than any other single factor, retarded development of rural villagers (the world over) in what has become a functionally "interdependent" world. History will not be so kind to Gandhi.
— Paul Skillicorn,
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I'm in partial agreement with Mr. Friedman, but I would add this:
"The Village" Tom refers to is all of us, regardless of religion or nationality. I would not single out Muslims or anyone else.
The issues come down to our leadership and our dissemination of information. The latter has 2 parts: Education and The Media.
The first decade of 2000 brought about the worst set of leaders I have seen in my lifetime: Bin Laden, Bush, Sharon, Saddam, Taliban, Ahmadinejad (just to name a few). The lection of Obama can hopefully help to change the wind direction, but more has to happen worldwide to get moderates in positions of power and influence. For someone like Bin Laden, we need a person of mentor stature who can rebute Al Qaeda at a moment's notice. (I'm also worried about Lieberman's influence in
The media's problem is that it likes to air the extreme viewpoint since it is more "newsworthy" (read: profitable). We in the village must pressure the media to change.
Education is the other area where we must be vigilant, so that our kids do not choose a suicidal path.
Again, this is a worldwide struggle. Those of us who wish tolerance and reconciliation need to voice our opinions louder. A good book to read on this is Benazir Bhutto's "Reconciliation".
Finally, regarding Friedman's comment on
— Alan Rotnemer,
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
At last, a sensible argument as to the true nature of the battle against terrorism. The dire problem that today's terrorist groups create cannot be resolved with guns and bombs, or computers and metal detectors. It must be resolved by combatting the very ideas that legitimize the harming of the innocent, the killing of harmless men, women and children. It must be resolved by attacking the very ideas that legitimize torture, assassination, brutalization. It must be answered by a restoration within Islam of the fundamental respect of the sacredness of life itself.
— Kenji, NYC
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I spent 10 weeks traveling in
— Jerry D,
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People living in glass houses should not throw stones.
Why do you put the onus on all Muslims? How come you do not take responsibility for the Israeli atrocities against innocent Palestinians? How come you do not blame the Jews for Israeli crimes against humanity or blame the Hindus for killing Muslims and Christians and burning of the mosques and churches?
These people were Pakistanis and they killed innocent Indians including Muslims. Their heinous act was political and it had nothing to do with religion.
Finally, religion should be kept out of politics and religious states should give way to secular states that includes
— Meehanparast,
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Muslims in
Considering the Hindu-Muslim tensions that so clearly exist in
What I do believe, however, is that the Indian Muslim elite (yes, they do exist) need to speak up more often and louder. They're cosmopolitan, often revered, and hold considerable sway over the country's young population.
— AJ,
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When the partition of the Indian Subcontinent occurred, the leaders of both countries made a decision.
If
Decisions, like actions, have consequences.
— Siva J,
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I don't want to take anything away from the Muslim Indian leadership; they did what they should have and they deserve praise.
But Friedman is taking a lot away from Muslim scholars worldwide, who have never failed to condemn terrorism. Sure, there's few people like Kardawi who treat suicide bombing as a legit way of resistance, but they are a small minority.
The condemnation of terror from Muslim leaders and scholars fills the airwaves in the Muslim world on a daily basis, but rarely makes it to the
Example: Gulen, the worldwide leader of a worldwide Turkish-majority Muslim network has stated repeatedly that "a Muslim can't be a terrorist,nor can a terroris be a Muslim".
And hundreds like him have stated the same.
Friedman should know better.
— ottoman, dc
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I agree with the thoughts expressed in Mr. Friedman's article. The moderate Muslim world must come together in opposition to terrorism, both vocally and through action such as being taken by those in Mumbai. However, at the end of his article, Mr. Friedman once again seeks to justify the war in
—
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Whatever the motive - the fact is they are sending a message - to Muslims not to receive a burial is a horrifying thought. so it would be a detterent to any future terrorist looking to find his place in heaven with the maidens. That is a strong message.
Comparing a few Hindu Radicals in
Mr.Friedman sees
— Beginning to worry,
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"The only effective way to stop this trend is for “the village” — the Muslim community itself — to say “no more.”
Yes--and the only way to stop
— JC,
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I was 5 years old in 1948 when Gandhi was assassinated. My Dad was Additional Magistrate in the beautiful hill station of Hazaribagh in today's
— syed salamah ali mahdi, Jeddah, KSA
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As someone who is born into a Hindu family and raised with human values with friends from all religions, I can attest that many muslims in
Nevertheless, many Muslims as have other minorities made great contributions to
Indian muslims are one of the pearls in the diverse golden string that is
—
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Is the
— Sandeep,
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As an Indian, I am so proud of the stance Indian Muslims have taken in this matter. However, you do paint a rosy picture. We have not been able to integrate with muslims as well as other religions. Muslims in
— anothermom,
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Mr. Friedman, while well intentioned, your column seems so simplistic it is almost insulting. The muslim leaders and community members of Mumbai who have come out publicly against this act of terrorism are certainly in the right, and their stand against terrorism should be appreciated by the Indian government and world community. But let us not forget the great diversity in the Muslim world before making sweeping proscriptions for the "Muslim community" and "Islam". It seems that you, while extolling their virtues have made a similar mistake to much of mainstream western thought and rhetoric. Like American, European, or your own "community" Muslim communities all over the world are a chorus of diverse voices and interests, both between them and within them. Indian Muslims included. "Muslim communities" and community members all over the world have varied cultures, identities, and priorities, and most likely value violence, peace, and justice in different ways. Before you blandly and blindly extol the virtue of one over others because it suits your interests and values, I suggest you afford Muslims the same humanity and complexity that your afford your own community.
—
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There is clear warning in The Koran that as Muslims attempt to walk what is described as "the Righteous Path", Satan can appear at any moment from "in front of you, from behind, from the left and from the right".
And it is clear to many Muslims that the one who whispers in the ear of the vulnerable "You shall kill in the name of God" is that very same Satan, the Iblis, that Darkness who would snuff out the crystal clear light of the One God, or G_D, or God the Father, the Light described in the Koran as "neither eastern nor western".
Mr Friedman's quotations from The Koran are correct - suicide is strictly fobidden in Islam and to kill innocents is "like unto killing mankind".
All people who have felt the "waterfall of light" that comes with enlightenment can respect the stance taken by Mumbai's Muslim community.
And yet Mr Friedman speaks of course, beyond Mumbai - his is a world view.
The Koran is said to be a "warning for mankind" and the Prophet Muhammad is called Al Nadhir, the Warner.
The beauty of the Koran's message cannot be revealed to more people while those Muslims who would forsake the Messenger's recital kill in God's name.
Those who would discredit Islam are Haram.
—
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There are lots of comments about Indian Muslim community did this because of fear of retributions. It may be true that those calculations went into it. And yes this column is gross oversimplification. Almost everything is.
But some of you including some of the nytimes reading Indians miss the point. It's called making a positive gesture. And some people in my parents generation appreciate it. To have harmony really need to FIRST connect with people from either communities who are waiting to be persuaded, provided we continue to reach out to each other in ways small and big. Lets give them a reason- any reason.
— jas,
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151.
Thank you Mr. Friedman for bringing this story to light. The times I have traveled in
I think that more Tamil people around the world need to call the Tiger suicide bombers murderers, too. I don't want to deny that atrocities have been committed by Sinhalese soldiers and civilians, but supporting with money or words suicide bombing from the relative safety of the West in inexcusable.
Jack Muirhead
— enghse202,
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Mr Friedman
Long time ago you definitely gave up your objectivity towards the Moslem world. In fact, you have a very selective approach when it comes to praise or criticize this community throughout the world, from
All my best
Mohamed
—
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All Editors' Selections »EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
What is truly surprising is Mr. Friedman's condescending approval of the actions of Indian Muslims. Not only in
— FD,
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The only effective way to stop this trend is for “the village” — the Muslim community itself — to say “no more.”
Great principle. Would also work if the "the village - the Jewish community itself - [would say] no more" to
—
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Amazing that the Pakistani embassy in
— Brijen,
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Congratulations are due to you, Mr. Friedman. I often wish to take issue with your conclusions, but this is incredibly informative, appropriate and thoughtful. I hope it is read, and absorbed, by all who have looked to make excuses for the radical behavior of a few in the global Muslim community -- whether their rationalizations have been based on hatred of their own governments, the State of Israel, the US, or most bizarrely, former President Bush.
— John Paul Garber,
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What surprises me is that Islamic Republic of Pakistan has not requested for the bodies. Didn't the government of
Under no circumstance should these bodies be buried in
Islamic extremists have never recognized nor accepted human law. In fact, they consider human law blasphemy and Islamic terrorists consider themselves soldiers of God and have taken upon themselves to establish the law of their holy book.
I don’t know of any other religion whose book has preached that any religion other than Islam is sacrilege and every non-believer of Islam should be beheaded. Over the last 1400 years, this teaching is taken to such an extreme that members of various sects of Islam around the
— RDU,
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Interesting article, but you can judge from your commentator that this is not a simple issue. Muslims in
I was born in India, had lived most of my life here in the USA, in order to resolve the issues of terrorism world wide, we have to look at the instigators of Muslim terrorism, the Muslim Brotherhood organization, the Wahabi influence of Saudi Arabia, the Jamaat Islami, the Jamaeh Islamia, Darul Uloom at Deoband, India. Tom, it is not as simple as you project. You have to go to the root cause of the problem. Look at what global security.org has on its web site,
“ Although the majority of the Islamic population (Sunni) in Afghanistan and Pakistan, belong to the Hanafi sect, the theologians who have pushed Pakistan towards Islamic Radicalism for decades, as well as the ones who were the founders of the Taliban, espoused Wahabi rhetoric and ideals. This sect took its inspiration from Saudi Hanbali theologians who immigrated there in the 18th century, to help their Indian Muslim brothers with Hanbali theological inspiration against the British colonialists. Propelled by oil-generated wealth, the Wahabi worldview increasingly co-opted the Deobandi movement in
A lot of intelligence agencies starting from the British ( agent Hempher), the CIA, ISI, RAW, KGB, and Mosad have and are using these fanatics. There is enough blame/credit to go around.
Stupid zealots are hard to come by, so every one uses them for their own reasons. Even if they die in vain no one misses them.
— Wizarat,
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While religious riots have always punctuated Indian history (with mass murders of BOTH Hindus and Muslims) since the partition, twisted media representations of systematic chronic Muslim subjugation in
This call by the Muslim leaders in
— Ajay,
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I think Mr. Friedman and the statements by the Indian Muslim community got this right, 100% right. This is the message that these righteous Muslims of India need to bring to the Muslim and Arab communities around the world.
It is clear, that for warped political, international, internal, inter-ethnic and inter-religious reasons, a minority, a small minority of the Muslim community has poisoned the teachings of the Koran for their own sick purposes.
Perhaps the Indian Muslim community working with other peace loving communities around the world could create an alternative internet website and news service that could provide a more objective and peaceful communication to the world and bring Islam back to its true values and principles.
— rayleeqwooted, New York, N.Y.
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An excellent article, reminding us that jihadist terrorists do not represent Quranic Islam. One can commend the courage of Indian Muslims even as one understands difficulties they face and what they have had to endure in the wake of Ayodhya, and the
Another point is debatable: Considering how many people in
— Robert Eric Frykenberg,
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it's so heartening to read the report on
As
or Parsi....the voice of sanity and love.
If US and Europe has a vastly developed infrastructure to be proud of ,the Indians have an ancient and tolerant way of life despite poverty to be proud of....even Pakistan and Bangladesh share the same unique civilisation despite the apparent aberrations...it's a matter of time and these neighbours also shall have an assurance for stability and peace.
Some thing positive reported and that made me realise the hidden strength we have.
— Iyer Nagarajan,
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163.
I partly agree with you.Indian Muslims have not accepted to bury bodies of terrorist should be welcomed.Indian Muslims are part of Indian society and they also know this by heart.They have equal rights and in some cases more than normal citizans of India.Though I believe there are extremist in among Indian Muslims who are propakistanis, but it is very small section and they are largely outnumbered by Muslims who are faithful to Indian democracy.I also believe they are witnessing the situation in pakistan and afghanistan where many parts are being controlled by taliban and when you compare level of freedom and ease of life style between those contries and India,they choose to remain with Indian democracy rather than with fanatics.With all those said, there are large numbers of Hindus who do not trust certain section of Indian Muslims, but still distrust is not uoto that extent where they believe that they are part of terrorist culture.
— amit, detroit , MI
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164.
Muslims will only say 'no more," to terrorism when they come out of poverty. Friedman thinks they first become moral and that lets them come out of poverty; when it is the other way around. The root of all terrorism is lack of absorption of one's energies due to unemployment, which issues out of poverty. It also has come about because of 100 years of diplomatic insincerity of the West toward the Arab world. Gorbachav has mentioned this repeatedly, but no one listens.
—
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165.
Refusing to bury the murderers is empty jingoism. Human dignity needs to be restored for these corpses, even if these people are responsible of the most despicable crimes.
It is sad that a columnist of Friendman's calibre is exhorting world's Muslim to do such empty acts, and perpetuating several stereotypes.
The fact is
Throughout the ages,
After partition of
On the other hand, the highest pinnacles of spirituality and pacifism of Islam are also reached in
The majority of
— vakibs,
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Without denying the good intentions and feelings of most Indian Muslims, I do believe that Friedman has ignored the fear of communal explosion (Hindu extremism also exists) that is never far from the surface in
—
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Friedman wrote concerning the nine terrorists: "There are nine bodies — all of them young men — that have been lying in a Mumbai hospital morgue since Nov. 29. They may be stranded there for a while because no local Muslim charity is willing to bury them in its cemetery. This is good news."
I am amazed at Friedman's childish comment that "This is good news."
If the Indian authorities have determined that there is no evidential use of the bodies of the terrorists and no Muslim charity is "willing" to bury them in its cemetery, ordinary decency dictates then the Indian authorities need to take it upon itself to bury (or cremate) the bodies. That should be the end of the matter.
Human affairs are sometimes unbelievable --including Friedman's above "lofty" comment.
===================================================
— Observer,
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It is my opinion that no civilized society should let a dead body rot, no matter what the ideological reasons are behind refusing a cemetory burial or cremation.
Not knowing much of applicable International law, I would say that
I hope the readers will enlighten me on what happended to the remains of assasins of leaders like Kennedy, Lincoln, Mahatma Gandhi, Liaqat Ali Khan, and Indira Gandhi. In what way the next of kin's faith will be upgraded or downgraded by accepting and safely disposing off the remains of their kin?
By the way, I am not a Muslim if at all that matters to give credence to my opinion.
— RMK,
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There's a saying that when you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. The appeal of Islamists, with few exceptions, is to young men and women whose futures are otherwise bleak. This is not the fault of the
— Abarafi,
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there are 160 million muslims im
muslims in
while referring to
http://2001-2009.state.gov...
islamophobia is running strong in the US among the conservatives and neo-conservatives,who repeatedly called obama a 'muslim' during the 2008 presidential election campaign.muslims undergo extra scrutiny at US airports and experience societal discrimination and segregation in america.a few pakistanis were kicked off a plane recently, causing islamic rights organizations to protest.
hindus face severe discrimination,both societal and by law in
— observer, us
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Though your article reads very well, I am afraid both your analysis and conclusion are as wrong as a mistake. You quote M.J. Akbar to support your viewpoint. Akbar talks so wisely not necessarily because he's a Muslim, but probably more bacause half his family is non-Muslim - it's Hindu.
Again you're wrong for facts, when you seem to indicate that Indian Muslims have not joined Al Quaida due to an emancipation. Indian Muslims have not jined Al Quaida in the states where they are in minority or said differently, live with more civilised people. For example take
Nothing against you personally. You are a good and honorable man. But often your writings assume you know more than the man - particularly the Muslim man. And in that you are wrong.
—
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OR, It is preposterous to state that
Children raised in diverse society are less likely to become bigots and get brainwashed.
Those nine monsters were raised in a homogeneous society where people of other faith were killed and/or driven out long time ago. As a result young people there perhaps never meet people who are not Muslim, do not dress or look like them or speak their language. It is therefore very easy to fill their mind with hatred for others.
I personally have met Pakistanis who never had met with a Hindu or a Jew until they came to the
— KDP, hOUSTON
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“Islam says that if you commit suicide, then even after death you will be punished.”
So said an Indian muslim member of parliament. This is a patent misunderstanding of the "suicide" bomber and their take on the tenets of Islam. Jihad is their aim. It is my understanding that they commit martyrdom (not suicide in their view) in keeping with one of the 4 categories of jihad. In these cases the jihad of the sword (the violent struggle against non-muslims). Under their interpretation the act of suicide would be compliant with Islam and in fact be rewarded in the afterlife.
I am sure that TF must have known of this quite common interpretation of the Islamic orthodoxy/extremist. So I wonder why he included the quote without explanation?
— BPM,
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Congratulations, Mr. Friedman on another tremendous column. As an Indian American, who grew up in
But there are warning signs. I think the imposition of Sharia law in the Swat
On the Indian side, there has to be a push back against small minded politicians who try to whip up religious hysteria and anti muslim propaganda to further their political gains.
— j.batliwala,
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In response to post #6, I can say with the utmost confidence that the vast majority of India Muslims love their country as much as the othe religious groups. They enjoy living in a pluralistic society and its freedoms.The vast majority of Hindus and Sikhs recognize this fact. It is stupid, and almost provocative to assert that the response by the Muslim clerics in
By the way, all sensible and fair-minded non-Muslim Indians have unequivocally condemned the Gujrat riots and are ashamed of this blot in
— Ash,
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176.
If by retribution one means the desecration of a cemetary due to the bodies being disintered by Hindu extremists, then India's Muslim community is being understandable cautious by refusing to allow the burials.
If they are refusing to allow the burials because they are afraid of Hindu pogroms against their communities, then this is not something Mr. Friedman should be crowing about. If fear of physical injury is preventing these people from following the tenets of their religon. i.e.(quick burial of the dead) then clearly
—
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Whatever be the reason for not burying the terrorists, I am proud of my pluralistic society in
— sgm, nj,
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Dear Tom,
I am a fan of yours and regularly read your column in the NYT. However, I feel you have written this piece on the basis of a few interviews with high ranking people in
— s p goel,
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Try replacing one word with another... and see what happens: friedman says "If suicide-murder is deemed legitimate by a community when attacking its “enemies” abroad, it will eventually be used as a tactic against “enemies” at home, and that is exactly what has happened in
i say; "If homicide-murder (missile launched, airborne or drone launched bombs,etc)is deemed legitimate by a community when attacking its “enemies” abroad, it will eventually be used as a tactic against “enemies” at home, and that is exactly what has happened in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan." and starts to be done at home...
— gennari3,
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Does Mr. Friedman actually expect the reader to be influence by this not so subtle anti-Muslim propaganda. Why doesn't Mr. Friedman write about virulent Israeli religious fanatics who are just as abominable as any Muslim terrorist?
— David G. Ward,
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Yes, it “takes a village” to make a culture people live for, or die for.
Now imagine how well we might do as Americans if we respected “the villages” of the world as something more than more markets for our bankrupted finance titans, our car makers who can’t survive by free enterprise, and our Congress serving mainly lobbyists of the usual biz school & commercial bent?
Do our schools – our institutions of “higher ed” – have anything to contribute to this new-found “village” integrity you celebrate – or will all go on dedicated as all have to the corporate agendas and habits otherwise all failing?
Phil Balla
Proprietor, www.EssayingDifferences.com
— ballaphil, Walnut Creek,
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Several of you have acknowledged that India's secular temperament is what makes for feeling a part of the whole country.Those who write that democracy is not the reason for Indian Muslims not wanting the terrorists buried in a Muslim cemetary, are perhaps partly right; but only partly.
— zsjardin,
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Mr Friedman, can you give us parallel stories of Hindu nationalist "villages" refusing to bury "martyrs" who kill Muslims, Jewish religious fundamentalist nationalists "villages" who refuse to bury "martyrs" who kill Arabs or fellow Israelis, or Roman Catholic fundamentalists who refuse to bury "martyrs" who bomb abortion clinics, or an American president, democratically elected, who refused to give a speech honoring the dead at an SS cemetery?
Further, do you feel, Mr Friedman, that the father of one of the "fasadists" has the legal and human right under rule of law (not religous law) in Mumbai to claim the body of his son and bury him quickly in his religious tradition? Should the father receive protection under rule of law from democratic mobs?
Finally, isn't it true that your "flat world" ideas whether in Mumbai or Iraq or China ignore the fundamental contradiction between hierarchical local culture and the religion and morals of the "village" on one hand and the global liberal democracy and economy and rule of law overriding religion and tradition from the US perspective that you advocate? For example, in
I think while you are in
— joe.shuren, bouvet island
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There will be a lot of skeptics to this article. Alas, it is easier to succumb to promoting religious divisions (as
— kabirew, Seattle, WA
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Dear Mr. Friedman,
While I do find your article overly simplistic, I applaud you for painting the correct broad strokes. As a Hindu living in a city with 45% Muslim population, I can indeed aver that Indian Muslims are peace-loving patriots. However, their lot has not been an easy one - in general, they are lesser educated, and less well off than their Hindu bretheren. It is a testament to their faith in Indian democracy that they continue the struggle to better their lives. Yes, age-old prejudices exist on both sides. Yes,
— Shav,
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Great columsn Mr. Friedman
I am proud of Indian democracy and Indians (Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Christians, Jians, jews, zoroastrians.).
Thanks to Friedman for bringing the true picture of
Indian muslims are rejecting Pakistani terrorism because
That does not mean
World community needs to unite against Taliban/Al-Qaeda/Pak-ISI-army-mullah network who export terrorism everywhere.
— Bhaskar,
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Dear Mr Friedman,
you write ..."The nine are the Pakistani Muslim terrorists who went on an utterly senseless killing rampage in Mumbai...". This killing rampage may not have been so utterly senseless as it may seem. Before the massacre the governments of
— Karsten,
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I am a muslim who lived in
— Kasim Ali,
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